My Response to 6x6 World's Attack

Objectively, because I'm honest, I had my character attacked by people, including the site administrator, on the 6x6 World forum. After I was attacked, I was unable to respond because the account for my username was permanently banned.

At first, I wasn't sure if I even wanted to respond to the attack because I didn't want to dignify the attack. I'm not so much upset as I am hurt. I really love 6x6s/8x8s, and to have my character attacked based upon nothing, while the people attacking me wrote in terms that would indicate they have some kind of absolute knowledge or that I did something to them and/or people they know, I felt that I should respond. If the 6x6 World forum is the forum of the 6x6/8x8 amphibious ATV industry, I must respond. Therefore, I've decided to respond here.

You can see the attack on me by going here: http://www.6x6world.com/forums/other-aatvs/28197-8x8s-china.html

As you can see, on that forum thread, which was my first ever post on that forum, I promoted absolutely nothing nor did I intend to do so. I wanted to seek people's input on something before I make some huge mistake not because I'm dishonest and unethical, but because I'm honest. Instead of people giving me good, sound advice and welcoming the fact I would seek their input, I had my character attacked with ad hominem attacks that are not grounded in any kind of reality.

The only way anybody could tell that I've even thought about doing anything with the 6x6/8x8 industry in any kind of commercial way is because people attacking me said so.

As you can see on that forum thread, I explicitly stated that warranties with companies in China are virtually impossible to enforce. I will say that again here, because I want you, the reader, to mentally process the significance of what I'm saying: a guarantee from a company in China is, objectively, meaningless.

My username account was suspended and I was then unable to respond to any of the attacks on me and my character. The message I receive when logging in is that I would not be welcome to promote my "Chinese Argo knockoff dealership" in the words of the forum administrator. 

Apparently, the forum administrator knows more about me than I know, because not only do I not have a "Chinese Argo knockoff dealership", I have no dealership to sell any ATVs whatsoever. Nor do I have any concrete plans to become a dealer. In fact, I've been in a planning stage for a long time with no clear direction, and, besides capital being an issue, the main issue I have with Chinese ATVs is there's too much risk involved because of quality control and not being able to count on any guarantees from makers. So I don't even know, exactly, what I would like to do.

If I were a dealer for Chinese 8x8s, I would make a lousy one because the first thing I would explain to any potential buyer is that because there's no product support network in place in the United States and guarantees from an overseas company can't be relied upon, I'm selling these as is. Not only that, I would then find myself unable to even make a sale as I would nix the entire idea before I actually sold anything precisely because of the potential problems. That's not just a hypothetical. That's what I actually did. In fact, I've never received a single dime from anybody for any ATV. I've been very hesitant to do anything precisely because I recognize the moment I receive somebody's money, I am then obligated to get that person what they want or get them their money back.

Now, compare what I say with what some of the people on this forum  thread say: http://www.6x6world.com/forums/other-aatvs/3690-china-aatv.html From what I can tell, there was no hostile reaction to the poster who almost seemed to be delusional in his faith in guarantees made by Chinese 8x8 manufacturers.

Despite having never received a single dime from anybody for any ATV, I've been accused of being a fraudster and scammer. Apparently, my fears and concerns about potential problems were entirely justified when I'm accused of such things absent any evidence whatsoever and despite having never received a single dime from anybody for any ATV. I can only imagine what I would be accused of were I to actually follow through on anything that involves money.

Unfortunately, I don't still have the contact information for an ATV dealer from Wisconsin who had contacted me in 2012 about the possibility of getting a few people together to buy and import some Chinese 8x8s. And that was in response to listings on Ebay because I had entertained the idea myself. I removed those listings entirely under my own volition precisely because I recognized the possible problems and liability issues. And about those listings, one would notice that I never mentioned anything about warranties or guarantees. There's a reason for that, despite every Chinese 8x8 maker offering some kind of guarantee. I wasn't going to tell people about warranties that can't be enforced just to make a sale.

I wish I had the contact information for the ATV dealer from Wisconsin because he could vouch for me here. I went back to him and, objectively, what I told him was that I would love to have a good 8x8 at a low price, but there's just too much liability involved with trying to get anything like this imported on behalf of others. There's not going to be any kind of reliable product support from the maker. The responsibility involved with being the point man would make me too nervous. If people were to get something that doesn't work, I'm on the line for it and the nightmare I had was over the thought of getting stuck having to buy back several Chinese 8x8s.

On a side note, looking back, it's very possible that not only would I not have made any money but I would have actually lost money by the time Ebay fees and shipping costs were paid, which was why it was difficult for me to come up with a good price. Objectively, I was going to perform a free service by having ATVs imported for people and the farthest I ever got was looking all over the place to find a reasonably priced shipping quote which I did find. But I wouldn't have minded it if I didn't make anything, as I wasn't doing anything so much from a business perspective as I was wanting to collaborate with others since the shipping cost per unit declines by importing more than one. In fact, what I was even planning on doing were I to have gone through with anything was setting a price that I knew would cover all the costs on my end, but then afterwards issuing a partial refund to all buyers so that I wouldn't make any profits. I was planning on only making enough to cover my own costs.

At no time have I ever entertained the idea of receiving and keeping money that doesn't belong to me. Suppose I had received money - although I never have, because I never followed through on anything - and something happened where I couldn't get something imported. The first thing I would do is get that person their money back. Nor would I conceal the origin of any ATV or any part. In fact, I had even written up a huge disclaimer going over all the issues with Chinese made 8x8s and how guarantees can't be relied upon.

So, I haven't received a single dime from anybody for any ATV. I haven't defrauded anybody nor scammed anybody. Well, the only thing I can think of then is that because I don't reflexively hate everything made in China, that's why the people on that forum chose to attack me. So, do I have some kind of bias in favor of things made in China? I would say no. I'm not the wealthiest person in the world. My love affair is not with Chinese made products. My love affair is with lower prices. So, I confess to being guilty of thinking about cheaper alternatives to North American made 8x8s. My position is that something isn't bad just because it's made in China, but there are a whole lot of other issues to be concerned about especially if something seems too good to be true.

Around late October or early November, I contacted Galen of Max ATVs, talking to him about making a scaled diecast replica of the Max. Why? As I explained to him, I would love to become a Max dealer, but I'm not super wealthy and don't have the capital to buy several Max ATVs at once. The next best thing would be to sell some kind of scaled model of the Max. I would rather do something honest, like buying and selling things, than to steal or take a bunch of money from the government. So, go right ahead and attack me and then I can see how foolish I was to contemplate anything like doing something honest in the 6x6/8x8 industry. I've pretty much laid that idea to rest not because I dislike Max, but because of the attack on me I'm not eager to do anything with the industry that involves money.

Why did I bother talking to Max ATVs about this? I could certainly just go have some  generic scaled 6x6/8x8 models made. But I want to make something branded, and I have no intention of having anything made and stamping the name Max onto it unless the company itself has given me permission and is involved in some way, perhaps getting royalties from sales. If I'm a scammer, why would I think about such things?

In October of 2013, I had communicated with Matt of Mudd Ox about the possibility of getting implements mounted onto a 6x6 and/or 8x8. Does that make me guilty of conspiring to start a Mudd Ox dealership at the time?

Getting implements mounted onto a 6x6 and/or 8x8 brings me to how I became interested in 6x6s/8x8s to begin with. Contrary to what one person on the forum wrote, I haven't been around for a long time. I first became very interested in 6x6s/8x8s in 2012 because of my interest in mining, small scale mining, gold prospecting and gold dredging (which I've done some of before). I'm a firm believer that you have to love something to sell something. So why not do something with something you love? At the same time, I do not wish to leverage myself into anything with borrowed capital.

I'm getting into welding and am getting some fabrication skills. I've purchased some hydraulics courses that I've studied and I have purchased plans to build different implements. Forgive me for even thinking I have a right to pursue an interest like this, as I guess if I want to do anything honest that makes me a "scammer". One of my dreams is to build 6x6s/8x8s, my own line of mining equipment, or making implements that can be mounted onto 6x6s/8x8s like small front loaders or backhoes (e.g. a backhoe mounted to the front so one person can operate both the vehicle and the implement). Not even necessarily to sell, but perhaps something for myself.

The only thing I've purchased involving 6x6s/8x8s so far are the plans from www.buildyourown6x6.com I purchased those plans in September of 2012. I've also purchased some parts to build a 6x6 pursuant to those plans, but what has prevented me from finishing that is I quickly realized I could spend as much as a good, used Max sells for to put together a 6x6 pursuant to those plans. I love the plans and they are great plans - very thorough and easy to understand - because they will really help a person understand how to build a small vehicle from scratch.

From what I can tell, due to import restrictions on engines, none of the Chinese 8x8s can even be imported into the United States. So not only did I not promote my "Argo knockoff dealership", I had no intention of ever doing so. Selling a complete Chinese 8x8 to the United States can't be done.

I'm not at all inclined to defend unethical practices. If Chinese 8x8 manufacturers literally stole the molds from Argo, I would not defend that. But then why must I say that as if I'm responsible for Chinese 8x8 makers? And if I were to make a 6x6 and/or 8x8, I would want my own style. Something a little different. Also, I'm somewhat biased in favor of the hydrostatic drive.

I absolutely love Mudd Ox and I love Argo. But not everybody can afford a Mudd Ox or an Argo. We can put in place trade restrictions to suppress cheaper competition, but this will do nothing to boost Mudd Ox or Argo. It will, however, price poorer people out of the market.

If it's impossible to sell a Chinese 8x8 in the United States, and if I want to get into building 6x6s/8x8s and be competitive by offering something for people with smaller budgets, what's one thing I could do? I could make some kind of a Chinese-North American hybrid. No matter what, I would be needing to use a North American engine. So, some parts (e.g. the body) made in China, other parts I have machined, other parts from North American suppliers, maybe even some Argo and Mudd Ox parts? I don't know. That's part of the reason I would like to talk more to people on 6x6 World.

What works? What doesn't? Has anybody had any experiences with Chinese 8x8s? How do I keep the cost of production down? Does anybody have any good ideas on this? I don't see how wanting to have that kind of a discussion makes me a scammer, a fraudster, or unethical.

There's a person in Canada who has a company and he just started making 8x8s. I would imagine at some point, his 8x8s will be mentioned on 6x6 World. At the very least, even if his 8x8s weren't mentioned I would imagine there would be no hostile reaction for mentioning them. Just to let you know, the body for his 8x8s are being manufactured by a Chinese 8x8 maker. It's a customized, higher quality body than the one the Chinese 8x8 maker uses for its standard 8x8. But the other parts are North American made. When his 8x8s are produced, and people discuss them on the 6x6 World forum, nobody will be the wiser that part of his 8x8 was made by a Chinese 8x8 maker. Is the guy a scammer for building a Chinese-North American hybrid? Or is it only me who has no right to contemplate doing something honest?

One person on the forum thread that I was attacked on posted a link to an offering  to build 8x8s and then accused me of lying. I haven't lied about anything. Albeit, I'm somewhat unclear in the exact direction I would like to go in which is why I was on that forum. I wanted people's advice. I was seeking people's input. I would think they would feel honored that people seek their input.

I've had no intention whatsoever of taking money from anybody for anything that can't be done. If I couldn't do something, and I couldn't find somebody else (e.g. Mudd Ox which would benefit Mudd Ox) who could, then I would be obligated to issue a refund.  But I've never received money for anything, nor have I ever attempted to receive anybody's money. I even had somebody inquire about having me build an 8x8. I immediately responded right away and up front by telling that person I have nothing on hand, some of the parts would come from overseas and I'm looking for a good North American engine to use. So there's been no effort on my part to conceal anything like where parts would come from and so forth.

To the extent I've thought about doing anything it's been to see if there might be any kind of interest in this, and that's because I don't have a ton of capital to pour into buying a bunch of ATVs and parts. And if I did have the capital, I would probably be a Max or Mudd Ox dealer, not a Chinese 8x8 dealer.

The attack on me seemed to be based on an emotionally-driven hatred of all things made in China. I'm not unsympathetic to all of the arguments against Chinese products. I, too, want to see Americans prosper. In the emotionally-driven attack on me, I think people even miss ways to benefit American companies and Americans. I am an American myself, but apparently some people don't want to see me even attempt to do something that may or may not even benefit me.

Think about this. If I were to build 8x8s with some parts from China, the engine has to be North American. So, let's say I build an 8x8. Now I have to go to an American company to get the engine. That then benefits an American company. But before I even get to that point, I'm accused of being a fraudster and a scammer based upon nothing. Or what I can't do myself, I would have to hire out by hiring Americans. But why am I having to justify myself by pointing out what I do would benefit other Americans while people on 6x6 World slandered me, not even thinking about me nor my interests? So, I must think about everybody else's interests while nobody else considers mine?

Or think about this one. I would be the first to admit that the Chinese 8x8s, for the low price, are way inferior in quality to the North American makes. It seems to me that Argo and Mudd Ox or another parts supplier could very well benefit from somebody making a Chinese-North American hybrid, at least to the extent the builder doesn't have their own machining done.

Suppose I were putting together a hybrid 8x8. What parts of a Chinese 8x8 are of such poor quality they should be discarded and substituted with perhaps Argo or Mudd Ox parts? Do I have parts that meet NAS machined for some of the 8x8? If something breaks, to what extent can Argo or Mudd Ox parts be used to keep a Chinese 8x8 running? And this wouldn't just go for anything I build, but for Chinese 8x8s that have been sold to other parts of the world already. If the attack on me in that forum is indicative of the North American 6x6/8x8 industry, then the industry is going to miss a lot of opportunities.

As I pointed out, I, too, am an American. So, let's say I were to sell complete Chinese 8x8s to other parts of the world since they can't be sold to the United States, making some kind of referral commission for doing so. Now I haven't and I have no concrete plans to do so, but let's say I did. In this case, there's an American (i.e. me) making a little something off of a product manufactured in China. What would be so wrong about that were I to ever accomplish that? How would that make me a fraudster, scammer or unethical?

I'm the kind of person who would give a person the shirt off my back if that person needed it. I would do things for little to no profit because I enjoy doing something and because I enjoy helping people. To me, honesty and integrity are important. What has kept me from doing a lot of things has been wanting to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. In 2012, I sold a towable backhoe and made a few hundred dollars profit. When I saw that the supplier had lowered the price from a month earlier, I went back to my customer, issued that customer a full refund, and directed the customer straight to the supplier to buy it at a lower price. I was under no obligation to do that whatsoever. The customer went straight to the supplier and purchased the same thing at a lower price. I didn't make one dime from that sale. I literally turned down the opportunity to make money!

I'm a fan of the Elio, as are quite a few people. See: www.eliomotors.com It's technically a motorcycle, but built like a three-wheeled car. It's supposed to get up to 84 mpg and the final price tag is supposed to be $6,800. They have been doing pre-sales for it. People can reserve one paying as much as $1,000 for the reservation. From what I've last read, they don't even have the plant to make these. They estimated they would begin making them sometime in 2014.

I'm not accusing anybody of dishonesty, as I see nothing inherently wrong about this, and there's no effort to deceive people into handing over their money. I  bring this up because of the way I've been attacked on 6x6 World, yet I've never received a single dime from anybody for any ATV. If I were in Elio's shoes, I wouldn't even feel right. Although there's no intention of defrauding people, I would be unable to sleep at night thinking about all of the money I have from customers and how I'm obligated to them. If I'm a "scammer", then what does that make Elio Motors? If the attack on me is acceptable, then how would it be unacceptable to call the people behind Elio Motors scammers?

Perhaps I violated the forum ToS. It's certainly the right of the 6x6 World administrator to ban me from his site. But the attacks on me are not justified. The attacks are slanderous. To help the people who attacked me see how they made ad hominem attacks on a person they don't know and absent any kind of evidence, I will repeat the three accusations and follow each with a simple question.

1 - I was accused of lying

What did I lie about?

2 - I was accused of being a fraudster and scammer

Who did I defraud and scam?

3 - I was accused of being unethical

In what way am I unethical?

Note: The people on 6x6 World seem to believe I am behind every last Chinese 8x8 listing on the internet, linking to eBay listings and other listings that I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with. To make clear, I've never received a single dime from anybody for any ATV, nor have I ever attempted to do so, and I would absolutely NOT sell a Chinese ATV due precisely to the fact that guarantees from a company in China are worthless! Since I first wrote this response, I wrote an updated post right here: https://amphibiousatvs.blogspot.com/2021/10/6x6-world-hypocrites.html